Tanners and gemcutters are producing insane amounts of resources?

[Jago]

   

Quote from: Jago on Today at 01:13:17 PM
"Stone Cutter and Tanner Nerfing     2010-06-29 13:08:56
As of today, June 29th, 2010 the crafting tool bonus for Stone Cutter and Tanner for processing raw resources will be halved. Legendary Tools will now give 25% and Rare - 15%"


Someone can explain the reason behind such nerfing?

Stone cutters and Tanner  already don't have items giving a bonus to the harvesting of resources, tanners have a malus when trying to harvest resources in a location with monsters whit a lover level than them and now you add a further nerf.

Why?

Oton
Re: Stone Cutter and Tanner Nerfing
« Reply #1 on: Today at 01:25:28 PM »
Because they are currently producing insane amounts of resources which is flooding the market and is bad for the economy.
It's one of those measures your government makes from time to time to regulate the market, so some people don't lose massive amounts of money one day and then - throw themselves from tall buildings.

Trust me, it's good for everyone.
Right now the gemstones and the hides prices are so low the Stonecutters and the Tanners are actually not working for profit at all.

1) Stonecutters are flooding the gem market because of the mechanic you have implemented to get the ruby and sapphires. To get them we we can't dig directly for them but have to dig for other gems. So to get 1 sapphire or ruby I will end digging 10 other gems that I don't need. 
This mechanic make the other gems a byproduct of searching for the higher order gems.

Reducing the production of the other finished gems and especially doing it this way will not help.
We will need the same number of success success cutting gems to get to higher tiers of the profession, so will will cut more low value gems and produce more, not less, gems.

2)Tier 3 resources, unrefined:  Iron ore = 1.325; Silver ore = 4.500; Ruby = 3.296; Yew wood = 895; Heavy pelt= 199; light bones = 239
   Tier 3 resources, refined: Iron ingot = 3.800; Silver Ingot = 6.500;  Ruby gem = 3.500; Crafted Yew = 650;  Heavy leather = 500; Crafted light bones = 470

    Tier 2 resources, unrefined Tin ore = 870; Sapphire = 950; Ash wood = 799; Medium hides= 235; 
    Tier 2 resources, refined: Tin ingot = 899; Bronze Ingot = 2.000;  Sapphire gem = 1.740; Crafted ash = 799;  Medium leather = 599;;  Rough sharpening stone = 50 tick sharpening stone = 898;

     Tier 1 resources, unrefined: Coal  = 890; Copper ore = 650;Oak wood = 499; Light hides = 5.000;; Soft sharpening stone = 650, uncut gems 2.000-2.500
      Tier 1 resources, refined: Copper ingot = 1.000; Light leather =  3.450;  crafted oak = 630;  Cut gems 2.00-2.500 (opal = 1.000)
   
Comparing like to like I don't see this "low prices for hides and gems", with the notable exception of light pelts/hides

Or we will see a nerf to wodcutting in the near future too?

3) Why you have locked the thread? this is a discussion board or not?

[Jago]

Then you are not considering the effect of production on material consumption:

my weaponsmith/carpenter has constructed hundreds of single long bows and Yew longs bows to get the last 10 crafting points to be capable of producing Epic tier 3 weapons. It is a system requiring a limited number of AP to gather the resource and the production is fast enough.
That way it has burned some thousand units of crafted yew.

Where is the option for my jeweler/gemcutter to do the same?
I should purchase silver ingots to build the items in the simple recipes, I will not use gems as the low level recipes don't use them and I will consume to much money to make it worthwile to push for the epic items.

To suggest a possible solution for gemcutters: add ioun stones (the name is not a copyright of TSR/Wizard of the Coast, the were created by Jack Vance in the Dying  Earth series of novels), items that use a neck slot and require only gems to craft.

Make them  low power, level x0-x4, and fast producing.
Each tier of jeweler from 2 to 6 will have use a kind of tier one gem for the process.

Gemcutters will burn tons of stones to produce them and increase the crafting tier.




 

[maeof]

I don't like the resources cost too.

Actually, it totally sucks(needed to use a bad word)

and I know how you feel, I m weaponsmither, and carpenter too.

[Crassus]

When you open a topic at questions, and you receive your answer then the topic is locked. If you want to discuss about it we have the General talk.

Also thanks for the suggestion.
I believe that gems or ingots etc are not hard to find if you are in a guild...
For example i am tier 5 and i have found a dungeon with "good" drops, thus i gain a lot of tier 2-3 gems, the guild stone-cutter have a constant flow of resources to craft, also if he needs ingots, asks and we give.

Stone-cutters are the only profession able to craft same type of resource at different tier, and the only one gaining more than 1 points (1 ruby gives 7 cp) with 1 crafting.
All professions need some disadvantages, we  can't create the perfect one coz then there will be only one selection for the player.
Tanners gather resources only from their tier.
Miners when gather loose AP.
Stone-cutters also loose AP (not always, they can kill humanoids).

These (dis)advantages play there role to the prices...
But as long as there are produced more than destroyed (by crafting) the prize will be low, thus they decide to lower the production.
Basic economics.

[Jago]

As I did say, the problem with gemcutters is that they gather tier 1 uncut gems when in reality trying to gather same tiers gems (and honestly I think that gathering tier 2 gems in a tier 3 location is wrong).

I think that part of the problem is that you are trying to change only the production part of the equation without touching the consumption part.

Maybe you can modify the multiple characteristic items  so that they require a same tier gem plus 1 gem of tier 1 for the secondary characteristic. Or simply add more jewelers recipes using gems as, in the tiers I have done so far, there is a lower quantity of recipes than in other professions.

And please, very please, add a harder tier 1 dungeon with animals dropping light hides. From what I recall even with tier 1 characters gathering light hides is difficult and as soon as you hit tier 2 it is impossible.

Picking up a old suggestion of mine, you could add a herbalist profession and add to the woodcutter the capacity to gather herbs too (so you will have 4 gathering professions and 4 profession doing a final product.

The herbalist [or alchemist] would produce potions using herbs and gems. So another way to use gems.
Make him produce multiple potions for each attempt and balance the quantity produced (against the NPC prices)  so that they reflect the price you want for cut gems.
Rainbow potions will require all kinds of gems and he will not be capable of producing potions that require diamonds to purchase them (or they will require ungodly amounts of materials,a s you prefer).

[Jago]

Crafted light bones for some of the higher level tier 3 amulets and rings?

And some of them not using gems?

When was it implemented?

And it is not against the idea that there are too many gems produced and not enough used?

[Crassus]

Well if a herbalist "enter" the game then the most new players will be herbalists, coz the need of potions is great and you need them daily but armor and weapon items you buy the most 4 times per tier. This way herbalists will be the richest guys in the game. It would be nice for one or two more professions but we have to look what the reflect to other professions will be.

Crafted light bones for some of the higher level tier 3 amulets and rings?
And it is not against the idea that there are too many gems produced and not enough used?

Yes it's against the gems production-destruction, but it's not against the bones production-distraction. As you know bones are produced by thousands from the tanners when they kill turtles or bulls, and there are missions at dungeons with such beasts so they benefit are much for gathering them.
As you said why not to touch the destruction (need) of gems, they did it with the bones, they will see what is more profitable for their goal and perhaps they change the rules and for the other, the same way.

PS. when you there is no reply between your posts or a day have past, you can edit your last post to add something, double posting doesn't look nice...


second PS. Do not know why but the truth is that tanners are treated somewhat better than the other professions... perhaps when the game start tanners where to much imbalanced, and still trying to fix it...

[maeof]

This discussion is going to be long. Just lets prevent flame wars. (which can happen in future)

[Cuorion]

I don't see why people are so obsessed with Light Leather, when it is only used in special occasions (such as a crafting quest) and it is basicly an expense to everyone (even tanners themselves).

Anyway, gems prices really are low. This can be seen at t4 and above, where a leather is worth about the same as a gem when a tanner can gather hides for 4-5 pieces of leather using 1 ap. T2+ gems' prices also go down fast. Pearl was 200k worth 1 month ago and now it is worth 24k. But I think that's because of the fact that too many gems are awarded as storyline quests rewards (got around 25 pearls in total I think).

So the idea is simple. Decrease the amount of supply so the demand increases (you make same profit if you sell 100 gems for 2k each or 50 gems for 4k each, but you need less ap for the later). That could be done in a number of ways. One would be to lower the chances that resources are gathered. That would be feasible for tanners but I don't think it would be ok to lower the changes to gather stones even more; they are quite low already. Second way would be for resources' processing to give less materials. Obviously, the second way was chosen (and I'm personally positive with that).

Now, regarding bones, I don't know the logic behind being used in jewellery, but they needed some love too (they are barely used even by tanners-armorsmiths themselves in t4+). Gems on the other hand, are used in any single useful x8+ crafting. I think it's enough "destruction" usage, as it was called.

P.S.: I wouldn't call this change "nerfing". I don't know about gemcutters, but a sane tanner would never use a diamond-tool to process leather... Spend 50 diamonds to create 150 more leather and sell it for a total of 300k gold (=less than 3 diamonds). I, as tanner, haven't yet sold a single Very Heavy Leather, despite their "high" price (high... Steel Ingot price is 17k...) because I need them for my crafts, since ~10 pieces are needed for each item. Bottom line, zero profit. People should really stop thinking of tanning as overpowered...

[Jago]

Yes it's against the gems production-destruction, but it's not against the bones production-distraction. As you know bones are produced by thousands from the tanners when they kill turtles or bulls, and there are missions at dungeons with such beasts so they benefit are much for gathering them.
As you said why not to touch the destruction (need) of gems, they did it with the bones, they will see what is more profitable for their goal and perhaps they change the rules and for the other, the same way.

PS. when you there is no reply between your posts or a day have past, you can edit your last post to add something, double posting doesn't look nice...


second PS. Do not know why but the truth is that tanners are treated somewhat better than the other professions... perhaps when the game start tanners where to much imbalanced, and still trying to fix it...

- Reply to PS: it was intended as a shout and was strongly removed from the topic of the precedent post, so I made a new post on purpose, with the red text to add to the shout port.  Adding it to the precedent post would have drowned all the other text.

- Re to second PS: more than "better" tanners are treated very differently, especially with the "you will gather less resources as you rise in level" factor. 

As I said in a old post I would prefer a "trapper" part to the tanner profession, where you use AP and time to set traps and where you don't get pelts as a byproduct of killing animals in combat.
I know that homogenizing gathering methods will make the game poorer but balancing them will be easier.

- bone use in jewellery: my problem is that the bones haven't been added, but have substituted some gem that was used before by the same recipe. (AFAIK)

I don't see why people are so obsessed with Light Leather, when it is only used in special occasions (such as a crafting quest) and it is basicly an expense to everyone (even tanners themselves).

My miner/armorsmith regularly get quests requiring light leather;
she regularly get Tavern mission offers requiring light leather (not that she will do them, but maybe she would do some mission requiring copper to rise the production skill [making some crafting mission that require same level recipes will be a positive move, if the offered price is in the same range of what you can get from the NPC stores]);
several of my good armour and weapon recipes require light leather.

So there is a constant demand for light leather at least till tier 3 (and I have heard that even tier 4+ recipes require it). At the same time light hides are produced with some efficiency by characters between level 5 (minimum level to get a profession) and 7 (hardest level of tier 1 animal in the current dungeons). Constant demand and low production, perfect recipe for high prices, but low profits as very few crafted items pay back the material used to craft them.

But I think that's because of the fact that too many gems are awarded as storyline quests rewards (got around 25 pearls in total I think).

I agree.

P.S.: I wouldn't call this change "nerfing". I don't know about gemcutters, but a sane tanner would never use a diamond-tool to process leather... Spend 50 diamonds to create 150 more leather and sell it for a total of 300k gold (=less than 3 diamonds). I, as tanner, haven't yet sold a single Very Heavy Leather, despite their "high" price (high... Steel Ingot price is 17k...) because I need them for my crafts, since ~10 pieces are needed for each item. Bottom line, zero profit. People should really stop thinking of tanning as overpowered...

Again, agreed.  But I am regularly using the non-consumable hammer. it give a small but significant bonus.

I have 1 tanner supplying 3 crafters (not that the jeweller did use any of his  products before the last change) and I have brutally farmed the pelt generating locations to gather as much hides as possible, even if I had accessible locations giving better XP or item rewards.

[Cuorion]

I don't think normal tools are subject to the new rule.

On another note, can you provide a list of these good armor and weapon recipes that need light leather? The reason I'm asking is that I, as armorsmith, got no good armor recipes using that material and regarding weapons I have no idea and I would like to know.

[Crassus]

Only rare and Legendary tools are applied to the rule.

As for the tavern missions, they "choose" a low level x4 recipe to craft, usually from tier 1 since there you have the most (you know all the recipes). This is the reason the most players asked for a delete button for the recipes. But now you can "delete" them (by crafting them) ...

[janyemm]

 Making balance on market is not easy. Just now situation trying to be solved on "incoming" end, so limited processing was choosed. Anyway me as owner of three Tier5/6 cathegory heroes have brutal amount of rare gems T2, T3 ( sapphire, rubins ) and stock of T4 ( pearls ) also significantly raising. All gems are from loot from dungeons. My stonecutter do not gather gems for months ( except missions ) My jeweller has 600CP for cutting in all Tiers, so significant numbers of gems is cutted. But WHERE I can use them ? All tier1 gems I can use in crafting many armors, weapons, jewels for T5/6 characters, but special gems are only for their respective Tiers and only rare recipes. Just now I have almost 700 saphires, 800 rubies ... what with them ? I see bigger problem on "consuming" end for these gems. Maybe legend and epic recipes should demand except rare gem from respective Tier also some rare gem from another Tier instead or plus gems Tier1 to make another use for sapphire, rubins, pearls ...

As my main hero is tanner, also little to tanner profession. I absolutely agree with reducing processing for tanners. Tanners has 2 HUGE advances, their are gather "together" with fighting = gaining experinces, making missions and has short time for gathering hides, bones are gathered immediatelly so they are less vulnerable.

[Cuorion]

But now you can "delete" them (by crafting them) ...

Well, that's only in theory. Let's take someone that's not experienced enough in the game to stay away from level 14 recipes in armorsmith when he's still tier 2. He will very easily find and register the following.

Copper Scale Gloves
Copper Helmet
Leather Gloves
Cape
Leather Helmet
Leather Boots
Leather Belt
Leather Armor

Let's say now he reached Tier 4 and just had enough when the elite t4 storyline asked him to craft 5 rare capes. Let's see what he needs to "delete" these recipes.

Copper Scale Gloves: 1 Cooper Ingot, 3 Bronze Ingot
Copper Helmet: 1 Cooper Ingot, 3 Bronze Ingot
Leather Gloves: 1 Light Leather, 2 Medium Leather
Cape: 3 Light Leather, 2 Medium Leather
Leather Helmet: 1 Light Leather, 2 Medium Leather
Leather Boots: 2 Light Leather, 2 Medium Leather
Leather Belt: 1 Light Leather, 1 Medium Leather
Leather Armor: 3 Light Leather, 3 Medium Leather

Multiplying each of those with 200 and adding the sums gives a total of 400 Cooper Ingot, 1200 Bronze Ingot, 2200 Light Leather and 2400 Medium Leather. To buy those amounts in Realm 2 right now you need... 7,284,531 gold to buy everything available right now in the resources market and you'll still need 803 Bronze Ingot, 1476 Light Leather and 1390 Medium Leather.

We still want a delete button there!!

[Jago]

to the "crafting wishlist" can I request a "view recipes" option without the need to open the crafting window, and a sort for location option?

Cuorion, For the "good" recipes requiring light leathers I will check as soon as I am in a village.  Keep in mind that now some level x4 recipe is "good" as they are the limit to the items you can use during the first half of a tier.

Wuxing [armorsmith] scratches his head. Where are the tier 3 recipes requiring light leather? I don't see anyone of those. Something has changed here.

Pu-Leng (weaposmith, tier 3):
- Fierce blood lance (rare recipe),
- other level 28: Iron opal war hammer, bone emerald crossbow, blood fury, ecc. in total 35 of 51 level 28 weapon recipes (S&O) I have require from 1 to 3 light leathers.

I would say that weaponsmiths have a serious need for light leathers.