Imperial Hero International
General Category => Questions => Suggestions => Topic started by: Jago on January 16, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
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I think that the modifier to the number of pelts we gather (less pelts if you are of higher level than the monsters in the dungeon) is heavily unbalanced against the tanner (in Italian it is "conciatore" so that should be the right term).
The tanner is the only profession where you are penalized when you get a new level or even worse, a new tier.
If you are a gemcutter your chance of gathering lower tier gems increase slightly when you go to a higher tier region;
if you are a miner your chance of gathering lower tier minerals and the number of mineral gathered increase when you go to a higher tier region;
if you are a woodcutter your chance of gathering lesser quality wood increase and the quantity increase when you go to a higher tier region.
For the tanner when you go to a higher tier region you only get higher tier pelts and the chance of gathering lower tier pelt decrease .
It is both unbalanced between the profession and counterproductive as lower tier pelts are still required in higher tier crafting recipes.
A possible solution would be to allow a choice of what pelts you could gather from a killed animal (for example killing 3 bears in ursalia you could gather 3 medium pelts or 4 light pelts).
The other solution would be to remove the reduced chance of getting pelts from animals with a level lower than yours.
You would still be penalized as you would get way less XP for the same action point (killing tier 1 animals give less XP than killing tier 2 animals) but at least you would get a reasonable number of pelts, not 0 pelts for 16 fights against tier 1 wolves with a tier 2 character.
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I think tanners' greater advantage is that they gain XP while gathering resources (since the process includes that you kill animals). On the other hand, all other professions "waste" ap on gathering (regarding their characters' advancement).
Never forget that this is supposed to be a challenging game. The key is not to propose that difficult things become easy, it is to overcome them using your advantages. ;)
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I think tanners' greater advantage is that they gain XP while gathering resources (since the process includes that you kill animals). On the other hand, all other professions "waste" ap on gathering (regarding their characters' advancement).
Never forget that this is supposed to be a challenging game. The key is not to propose that difficult things become easy, it is to overcome them using your advantages. ;)
LOL
It is pretty evident you don't know how the economy of the game really work. Making gathering pelts easier will help crafters that use pelts in their work, not for the tanner gathering them.
The current system create a shortage of a needed commodity, so making the value higher. Making them easier to gather will not increase the gold a tanner will get for the same number of kills, it will decrease the value of the pelts (you know the supply and demand thing, you increase supply keeping the same demand and the price decrease).
Currently a light pelt sell for 2.000 gold while a copper ingot (roughly an equivalent item) sell for 1.000 gold, a jewel that require 2-3 times the AP to be gathered and cut sell for 2-3.000. So if you think that the current system balance an advantage for the people that gather pelts you are sadly mistaken.
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So if you think that getting Xp for a kill of a beast is helping the tanner, make him go to a encounter location and set traps, making it work like gathering wood, minerals or gems.
The current system has several flaws, particularly evident in the market of light pelts:
1) light pelts can be gathered only in the starting province, in that province there aren't good hunting grounds and you can start gathering them only from level 5 when you learn a profession, so you get a malus on the chance of gathering light pelts at level 9. You really think that the players between level 5 and level 8 should provide all the light pelts in game?
2) the current implementation is a legacy of the old system where every character was capable of gathering pelts and the balance is still based on that old situation. So, as that situation is changed, the balance is off tilt.
3) It punish everyone interested in crafting items requiring the light pelts. For some "mysterious" reason they are the only item required for level 2 and 3 items (and I suppose even level 4 items) that can't be gathered by player of that level with the right skills.
4) the Xp advantage thing is fairly weak, seeing the XP that a level 10+ character will get for hunting are very little and will have little influence in character growth. Give me a chance of gathering 1-5 pelts with a "almost sure" chance of success, like for metal or wood and 0 XP at every attempt and I will chose it 100% of the time.
BTW: totally unrelated, but why this forum hate so much Internet Explorer? As soon as you go over a smell number of character it start working very bad.
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Lets take it one at a time.
It is pretty evident you don't know how the economy of the game really work. Making gathering pelts easier will help crafters that use pelts in their work, not for the tanner gathering them.
I cannot recollect where exactly I mentioned anything about economy. That's a whole other story, if you ask me. And you keep mentioning "easier".
The current system create a shortage of a needed commodity, so making the value higher. Making them easier to gather will not increase the gold a tanner will get for the same number of kills, it will decrease the value of the pelts (you know the supply and demand thing, you increase supply keeping the same demand and the price decrease).
Let me explain this one a bit thoroughly. As I see it, there are three kinds of recipes in this game.
1) Recipes you use to level up your profession.
These kinds of recipes is what you spam-craft to increase your crafting points. What I used for Tier 2 was Superb Leather Belt which gives +2cp and uses 2 Medium Leather.
2) Items you craft to use or make profit by selling (usually after reaching 200+cp).
These are the gemmed recipes that suit your class (or the sapphire if you're rich enough).
Now since you obviously chose tanning for a reason, I guess you wanna craft leather in this group. There is not a SINGLE gemmed recipe for leather armor that needs light leather. NOT ONE!
3) Recipes you just ignore, either due to low quality or irrelevance with your class.
For example, what's the point of crafting a level 14 Leather Belt without stat bonuses or a level 18 Opal Leather Belt when you don't need strength?
The way I see it, you don't NEED light leather since the recipes you need to craft don't use it (Studded Leather recipes in Tier 3 use only Heavy Leather if I am not mistaken and I guess same way goes for tier 4 as well). The only reason you might need to craft such items is at story line quests but I think they ask you for already known recipes so if you stay away from "traps" they also stay away from you. Even if that's the case, you can buy 8-10 pieces of leather to do your job the way you buy gems.
Currently a light pelt sell for 2.000 gold while a copper ingot (roughly an equivalent item) sell for 1.000 gold, a jewel that require 2-3 times the AP to be gathered and cut sell for 2-3.000. So if you think that the current system balance an advantage for the people that gather pelts you are sadly mistaken.
And why exactly is that the case? I made a little fortune selling light leather. With half the money I earned I bought copper ignots to raise my craft and the rest were pure profit. And I didn't have to spend a weak of mining for this. Just normal XPing.
So if you think that getting Xp for a kill of a beast is helping the tanner, make him go to a encounter location and set traps, making it work like gathering wood, minerals or gems.
The current system has several flaws, particularly evident in the market of light pelts:
1) light pelts can be gathered only in the starting province, in that province there aren't good hunting grounds and you can start gathering them only from level 5 when you learn a profession, so you get a malus on the chance of gathering light pelts at level 9. You really think that the players between level 5 and level 8 should provide all the light pelts in game?
I would keep with the currend mechanics if it was my choice. The Den in Hope area is a level 7-9 area with groups of 2 animals. It's the best place to quickly XP to level 10 and it supplied me with all the light hides I mentioned on my previous answer.
2) the current implementation is a legacy of the old system where every character was capable of gathering pelts and the balance is still based on that old situation. So, as that situation is changed, the balance is off tilt.
You think high level miners are happy with having to spend days of action points to collect supplies? Ask around a bit.
3) It punish everyone interested in crafting items requiring the light pelts. For some "mysterious" reason they are the only item required for level 2 and 3 items (and I suppose even level 4 items) that can't be gathered by player of that level with the right skills.
Did you notice a hint of "tanners being too overpowered" in all my answers so far? It kind of needed a drawback to balance it a bit.
4) the Xp advantage thing is fairly weak, seeing the XP that a level 10+ character will get for hunting are very little and will have little influence in character growth. Give me a chance of gathering 1-5 pelts with a "almost sure" chance of success, like for metal or wood and 0 XP at every attempt and I will chose it 100% of the time.
I don't think you understand... You DON'T have a chance to gather light pelts at tier 2. What you do though, and very conveniently to be exact, is gather 4-6 medium hides per AP at level 16 while earning 150 XP per ap at the same time (Ursalia in Farolin).
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What you do though, and very conveniently to be exact, is gather 4-6 medium hides per AP at level 16 while earning 150 XP per ap at the same time (Ursalia in Farolin).
...and with the profit from the sale of those Tier 2 leathers that you will craft, you can buy some light hides/leathers.
Alternatively, you can get some Tier 1 guildmates/buddies that are tanners to give/sell you their hides.
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Sigh, it seem I can get the point across.
I am much more interested on the effect on other professions of the high light pelts costs.
Just to list some recipe asking for light pelts:
Level 3:
- Ultra fast repeting crossbow +24 dexterity - 2 light pelts
- Lance of defense +15 vitality - 3 light pelts
- apprentice staff +12 agility - 3 light pelts
- spiked fury +stength +1 - 2 light pelts
all level 28 recipes and for all of them the only item that can't be gathered in a level 3 region are the light pelts.
I am sure there are several armorsmith recipes requiiring them too.
I know 8 level 28 weapon recipes and 4 of them require light pelts. So explain why they are needed and at the same time an equivalent tanner (same level of my weaponsmith) can't gather them, while a equivalent character in all the other profession can gather the needed items?
We should put out a call for level 5-10 tanners for the guild while for all other profession higher level character are better?
The problem is that it is a legacy system left from when every character could gather pelts.
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My opinion is that giving a decent way for higher level tanners will not increase rewards for the profession, it will simply balance it out as the they will get less gold for the single pelt but they would be capable of gathering them for guild use and sell them on the market at a decent price instead of a "overpowered but for a short time" price.
Maybe this way it will be clearer:
I don't like a system where you get a short term large advantage in exchange for a long term disavantage.
With the current system it would be a good choice for a armosmith to start with the tanner profession as a secondary profession and then (if it is true that it is possible to change only the secondary profession without losing the skill points in the primary) switch to be a miner when you have reached level 14+.
As people spend much more time getting the levels from 10 to 19 and there are better dungeons where you can gather pelts the higher level pelts prices are more balanced.
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I can tell you it is so nice to stay 20 min for digging 1 AP for an ore with rare chance. Also, mining in dangerous provinces is so easily. Especially if you get attacked while doing it. So many advantages of being a miner instead of tanner 8)
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I can tell you it is so nice to stay 20 min for digging 1 AP for an ore with rare chance. Also, mining in dangerous provinces is so easily. Especially if you get attacked while doing it. So many advantages of being a miner instead of tanner 8)
Been there, done that.
Maybe you haven't noticed but I have a weaponsmith .No tanner profession for them. (and I have used a tanner, I know how both work)
What work badly is the coupling of "harvesting" pelts with combat. Removing the capacity of harvesting pelts from the "non-tanners" was an attempt to resolve the problem, but it still work badly.
It would be much better to completely decouple getting the pelts from combat and instead to use a system like those used by the other professions: go to a location, set up traps for wild game, wait X time, gather the trapped animals pelts.
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It would be much better to completely decouple getting the pelts from combat and instead to use a system like those used by the other professions: go to a location, set up traps for wild game, wait X time, gather the trapped animals pelts.
Now, since you're not a tanner you cannot collect hides either way. Why do I suddenly think you only care for your crafting costs to drop? In the same way I could ask for a gemcutting revamping since sapphires are worth ~12k each.
I am sure there are several armorsmith recipes requiiring them too.
If you are sadistic enough to ask me, I'll post every level 18 and 28 armorsmith recipe I've got so you can see there is none that asks for light leather. :-[
P.S.: Are you playing WoW?
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No, I don' play Wow. And you play EVE, seeing that disparaging it is one of the refrain in the forum?
Instead of going corporate and trying to protect a short term advantage (mostly for player of level 5-10) try to look at what I am saying from a objective perspective.
My suggestion can be wrong, but so far the replies haven't given any real argument why it gathering pelts should be different from gathering any other resource in the game.
The current system make the hides the only resource where the lower level resource is worth more than the higher levels of the same resource, the only resource where increasing the character skill and level reduce your efficiency and where you get Xp gathering the resource.
So what are the reasons for that?
"It was done that way and I like it" seem pretty weak.
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Strange as it may seem, your comments in this thread http://forum.imperialhero.org/int/index.php?topic=5130.15 (http://forum.imperialhero.org/int/index.php?topic=5130.15) about the diamond market give some reason why changing this mechanics isn't so good.
But then it give some reason why changing the gathering mechanics for all the other professions so that lower tier characters are advantaged when gathering some resource while higher tiers are advantaged when gathering different resources.
It would balance a bit the diamond market as high tier characters with deep pockets and the capacity of gathering diamonds in game would be buying low tier resources from low level characters, while low level characters would be buying diamond from high tier characters.
BTW: multiple accounts, multiple professions, so I can see the question from every profession point of view.
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why it gathering pelts should be different from gathering any other resource in the game
I've been answering this question since the very beginning but since you obviously failed to see my point, I'll be as blund as it can go.
It has to be different so there can be choices.
Every single gathering profession is different that the others.
Gemscutters only cut 5 gems in any tier plus they've got a special gem for each tier. This makes their crafting points raise rapidly but they get no gathering bonus from this. Each of their gathered resource can be crafted in one gem and every gemmed recipe requires only 1 gem of a certain type (even if the recipe needs more that one types of gems). Slow to be gathered, slow to be spended.
Miners can mine a great variety of minerals, divided in categories. However, to craft an ingot they need 3 different minerals. Although they collect fast, their crafting materials outcome is 1/3 of the gathered ones. Moreover, items that need ingots tend to need 6,8 or even 10 for a single craft. Fast to be gathered, fast to be spended.
I didn't have the chance yet to speak with a woodcutter so I don't know much about it. Let's put it aside for a bit, or wait for someone to enlighten us.
Tanners can gather pelts fast since there are places with groups of 3 animals that can drop up to 6 pelts. They need 2 pelts to create a crafting material. Leather usage in recipes is similar to ingot usage but since there are more crafting materials produced by the same efford (ap/gathered materials), their spending speed is lower than that of the ingots. Fast to be gathered, moderate to be spended.
If things were like that (what you propose to be done, in other words) there would be an overflow of leather in the market in no time. To avoid this, the mechanics restrict tanners from gathering all pelts at all times, so that they gather only one type at a given level. This way there are less medium hides in circulation for example, since there is no good place after level 18 to gather them. This makes the speed of leather spending in a global scale to raise, thus turning the hides in a "Fast to be gathered, fast to be spended" material. This could not have been done in the fashion of the other professions' style since the game cannot suddenly stop you from setting traps (as you proposed) at level 18 for example, without even a good excuse.
What you mentioned about diamonds compared to light leather is a bit out of place. Diamonds' price goes up because there is slow raise of supply, almost steady demand and overflow of money. If it has been a slow raise of supply, almost steady demand and slow raise of money, the price would already have been stabilized. That's what I proposed in the post you linked and I don't understand how it could be helped by overflowing the market with leather.
P.S.: I didn't quite understand what you said about EVE. If you could explain a bit, I would be happy to answer.
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I partially disagree with your opinion, but this time you did some good explanation for your position. Thanks.
Woodcutting is halfway between gathering minerals and curing pelts into leather.
Getting raw wood is similar to gathering minerals, but you use only one to produce the finished pieces of wood (sorry, no idea of how they are called in the English version of the game). You can gather 1 kind of wood between level 5-9, 2 kinds between 10-19, 3 kinds between 20-29 (and so on, I suppose).
You use between 3 and 6 units (sometime of different kinds of wood) to build a weapon and some armour recipe require wood. Fast gathering and medium usage I would say. Your skill point can go up very fast if you want (both as a woodcutter than a weapon smith as it will allow you to build a lot of wooden weapon with about 3 AP [1 for gathering the wood, 1 to cut it, 1 to build the weapon]).
Edit: "raw" wood to "refined" wood use 2 resources to produce 1, so approximately 4 AP to produce a wooden weapon (with a premium account).
I still think that access to light pelts is restricted too fast as you can gather them without malus for 5 levels against 10 levels for all the other materials and after getting to level 15 it appear to be impossible (something that don't happen to any other profession).
At this point your reasoning is clear (and I hope mine is too) so we can agree that we disagree.
What you mentioned about diamonds compared to light leather is a bit out of place. Diamonds' price goes up because there is slow raise of supply, almost steady demand and overflow of money. If it has been a slow raise of supply, almost steady demand and slow raise of money, the price would already have been stabilized. That's what I proposed in the post you linked and I don't understand how it could be helped by overflowing the market with leather.
Probably my post was a bit unclear. It was a larger argument about gathering material as a way to get money to buy diamonds.
Currently the only gathered material that is accessible only to low level characters and is still needed for high level characters are the light pelts. so the (relatively) high price.
So I was hypnotising something very alternative to the other idea, a change in the game in the opposite direction of the main suggestion of this series of posts giving a bit more power in the market to low level characters.
The idea was to make at least 1 resource of every kind available only to characters of a specific tier, so that they would "control" a resource useful to sell to higher level character, giving them a source of income that could be used to buy diamonds.
This is totally disjointed from the other argument. The only similitude was that changing it this way all the other profession would have their equivalent of "light leather".
P.S.: I didn't quite understand what you said about EVE. If you could explain a bit, I would be happy to answer.
Nothing important.
"Go Play WoW", "You play Wow" ecc. as a disparaging term is very used in the EVE forum (it is a space MMORPG) and what you wrote was very similar in tone.
Joust a last "inflammatory" comment ;)
Why all characters can get bones when they kill a animal? Shouldn't they be limited to tanners like hides?
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At this point your reasoning is clear (and I hope mine is too) so we can agree that we disagree.
Yeah, I guess we can agree on this one. :)
So I was hypnotising something very alternative to the other idea, a change in the game in the opposite direction of the main suggestion of this series of posts giving a bit more power in the market to low level characters.
The idea was to make at least 1 resource of every kind available only to characters of a specific tier, so that they would "control" a resource useful to sell to higher level character, giving them a source of income that could be used to buy diamonds.
This is totally disjointed from the other argument. The only similitude was that changing it this way all the other profession would have their equivalent of "light leather".
I wouldn't personally mind on this one. If it ever been proposed actually, I think I would vote for it.
Nothing important.
"Go Play WoW", "You play Wow" ecc. as a disparaging term is very used in the EVE forum (it is a space MMORPG) and what you wrote was very similar in tone.
Joust a last "inflammatory" comment ;)
Sorry if it sounded insulting, it was not intended to. It's kind of a joke old Lineage 2 players use in Aion.
Lineage 2 is one of the two games players left to come play Aion, the other being WoW. Lineage 2 was a very difficult game, reaching a point where the player had to earn money in every possible way to have a chance of surviving (imagine I was level 67 for more that 6 months). WoW on the other hand was a lot easier, not only in the aspect that 99% of the players reached top level, but also that the best equipment at everytime was a lot easier to acquire that Lineage 2. Aion is somewhere in the middle. So it seems easy to ex-Lineage 2 players and hard to ex-WoW players. When someone asks for something to change or says it is hard, "Did you play WoW?" is the first reply you ever see.
About EVE now, I used to play for a couple of months and I have great respect for that game. So I was wondering how could you know I was playing since I never mentioned it in this forum. :-[ *hihi*
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Yeah, I guess we can agree on this one. :)
I wouldn't personally mind on this one. If it ever been proposed actually, I think I would vote for it.
About EVE now, I used to play for a couple of months and I have great respect for that game. So I was wondering how could you know I was playing since I never mentioned it in this forum. :-[ *hihi*
I am a EVE addict so it was a pure coincidence.
The suggestion it is serious. What is dislike is the large difference in gathering systems. There is no need to "dumb down" the mechanics.
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Why all characters can get bones when they kill a animal? Shouldn't they be limited to tanners like hides?
Gameplay changes which will be deployed today:
[...]
3. All the bones in the game will now drop as loot only to those heroes that are Tanners.
Are you a prophet? :D
P.S.: I love the new battle visualization. :)
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:D
I wish I could do that with the lottery.
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imho, we need change the game, change recipes requirement leather to the same tier.
tier1 recipes must require tier1 leather
tier2 recipes must require tier2 leather
tier3 recipes must require tier3 leather
etc...
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Being a tanner I think only major trouble is with light hides (especially when a quest comes up *crazy*). In other case it is fine...in fact as pointed out in the earllier posts tanners are at great advantage in gathering hides tier2 onwards. In fact I guess in tier tier 2 a miner or carpenter would have to use 2 aps to get 2-4 resources ?????
But Being tanner I get 4-6 hides + 200XP +100 gold per AP :hooray: in tier 2..So that way there is much disparity. Also u can dig collectively all the 50+ hides u gathered by spending all your aps. In that way it is less time consuming *BEACH*...others have to keep digging again and again... *WALL*
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Chevalier, your description of gathering hides fails to include several factors....
Fighting animals for hides may result in 0 hides, you and your mercs may take damage that needs healing, and your equipment takes damage that needs to be repaired, which costs you gold. When you fight animals for hides, you rarely get other items dropped that are of any real value (for example, no weapons are dropped that can be sold at the stores for profit)
Currently, in tier 2, Ash wood is worth about 300 gold each, tin ore is 400 gold each, 1 raw sapphire is almost 8000 gold,......but a medium hide is worth only 100 gold.
Hides may be slightly easier to harvest, but I would not say that they are more profitable. I actually think, ALL things considered, all professions can be equally profitable (depending upon the individual player).
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hmm I didnt think that way. The net output is same in either case. But the low price of hides shows that it is easier to gather. That was my point. :D
I would especially emphasize on the last point that is collectively skinning everything(lot more convinient) because I had created another accounted as a carpenter and i find irritating to have to dig again and again every minute.
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Fighting animals for hides may result in 0 hides
True But if you go specifically for gathering hides there is this dungeon called ursailia where u never get less than 4 per battle at least till level 16. And if ur equipped with good gear and have nice mercenaries at level 12- 13. You get 6 hides guaranteed per battle...
BUT gathering light hides is a totally impossible task you may spend 24 aps and get 1 hide. Thats really irritating :rant:
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Imagine what happens when you get 6-10 heavy hides plus 4-5 light bones plus around 1000 gold per ap in level 21... *hihi*
Seriously now, I'll stick to Geomaticus's most accurate phrase.
I actually think, ALL things considered, all professions can be equally profitable (depending upon the individual player).
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I would especially emphasize on the last point that is collectively skinning everything(lot more convinient) because I had created another accounted as a carpenter and i find irritating to have to dig again and again every minute.
You can make several attempts to dig with one command, so no need to retry every minute. I find skinning animals after every combat more fastidious (I have read some post implying that it is possible to fight several battles and then skin all the animals in one go. It is true?)
For me a disadvantage of the tanner is that he can't "use" a bubch of AP in one go for gathering a lot of resources. Currently, it I know I will be away for a day with a gemcutter I can say "dig for 24 AP" and use all the AP produced in one day. 3 clicks and I am set for 24 hours.
With a tanner I need to go to a easy combat site (so that I don't risk to be too killed) and do a clickfeast: attack, jump to the end of the combat, close combat, skin, repeat another 23 times.
Nothing mortal but still more annoying.
Note that the changes in the market interface have removed most of my earlier complaints. The light hides bottleneck still exist, but it is way less of a problem.
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For me a disadvantage of the tanner is that he can't "use" a bubch of AP in one go for gathering a lot of resources. Currently, it I know I will be away for a day with a gemcutter I can say "dig for 24 AP" and use all the AP produced in one day. 3 clicks and I am set for 24 hours.
Please tell me how we can do that??Is this a premium feature?
And yes it is possible to skin after several battles and skinning does not take AP
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Please tell me how we can do that??Is this a premium feature?
I have premium and can do that
And yes it is possible to skin after several battles and skinning does not take AP
Nice, TY for the information.