Author Topic: what am I missing ?  (Read 23283 times)

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Offline isolde

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what am I missing ?
« on: May 04, 2009, 01:32:21 PM »
Ok, short and simple statistics.
Top 10 : 8 rangers and 2 warriors
Top 20: 13 rangers, 5 warriors and 2 mages.

What am I missing, is it so much more worth it to play a ranger in this game ? Seems you can gain a lot of experience because of that high agility and you will be missed a lot. Majority of players in top 10 are rangers, with exception of beast who deserves the lead because he had the right strategy of points distribution and really good weapons but besides that - I dont know what i am doing wrong !

I had from the beginning of this tier excellent high level weapon, good items and still cant seem to kill anything that the rangers easily slaughter ! Its frustrating, does it really suck so bad to be a warrior ! My one handed sword barely does any damage, armor doesnt help at all if I fight something which has high minimum damage, stupid archers evade 80% of my attacks, boars have a lot of hitpoints...ok, what CAN I fight - turtles !!!

I mean, I am just wondering how does it feel for you guys, because I find it hard - honestly ! I think in beta I am definitely going to play an archer in one of those mini skirts - I always sucked at hitting anything but if it will help me advance faster - maybe its worth it

Sheremetev

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 03:06:54 PM »
Rangers do have good Agi and Dex and warriors have better vitality and strength. Maybe if after specialising, appart from the x3 bonus in one of the skills we could choose a third skill, in which we get x2 would even things. (E.g: FuryWarriors get x3 Str, x2 Vit, x1 Agi, x2 Dex, x1 Int and GhostStalkers get x1 Str, x2 Vit, x3 Agi, x2 Dex, x1 Int)

Offline Polymeron

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 03:21:55 PM »
Yes, well, you're right of course, and here's why. Presenting a little breakdown of things when you fight solo. Sorry if it's a bit long...

Strength adds 1% damage per 4 points; that means enemies survive 1/1.01 the time so inflict that much damage (on average). The benefit of, say, 100 points of strength, is to reduce the damage you take by 20%. This would be useful if you were fighting in a group, but solo it is almost entirely useless.

Vitality adds 10 hp and 1hp/h per 1 point. While you don't take less damage in combat, you can say the damage is "diluted", it's exactly the same as taking less damage. Starting at 10 points (for warriors), every 10 points dilutes damage further. To take 20% less damage, you need a mere 2.5 extra points of vitality - at first. After that, it gets less useful. When you have 400 health, for instance, another 10 points of vitality are needed to reduce damage by 20%. And so on.

Dexterity behaves quite differently with higher- and lower-level enemies. Lower level enemies almost never have enough Agility to withstand the level modifiers, so Dexterity has little use against them. Against powerful opponents, though, that same level modifier makes Dexterity essential. Where an 80% to-hit chance could turn into 50%, 120% chance turns into 75% - essentially raising damage by 50% so reducing damage taken by 33%. The more agile the enemy, the higher the return on this. At minimum this is 1% per point of Dexterity, right up to the point where you always hit - which is never the case with truly tough enemies. Contrast with Strength which gives 1%/4 points, at best.

Agility is by far the most useful property of all. Against strong enemies, it both gives some chance to evade (similar to dexterity gains, but this time reducing damage rather than ensuring a hit - which is more useful when solo), as well as increasing Block chances. Unlike Strength and Vitality, and unlike Dexterity, the more you have of it the better, with the ceiling set at 25% enemy to-hit. Like Dexterity, this is almost never reached against higher-level opponents; it allows Rangers to fight tough enemies on even terms while rendering lower-level enemies completely helpless. Of all other attributes, only Vitality stands to any competition at all with this attribute, and only in the first levels - then the benefits of maxing Vitality sharply decline, whereas Agility remains a strong investment. At the same time, Rangers can still increase their fledgling Vitality and receive good benefits from the first few points, without needing the

Intelligence, I don't even want to discuss. Almost the only thing it does is provide Spirit; the experience bonus is nice, but not only does it not work with items currently, it also doesn't seem to compensate for the lack of Dexterity or Vitality, at least not in the earlier levels. It may become more important later on - or it might not. Personally I'm betting Agility and Dexterity will remain the most important attributes in all 5 Tiers, assuming the mechanics isn't changed. The Mystic's dependence on Spirit requiring high Intelligence is a handicap, not a bonus.


Bottom line: Warriors and Mystics have 1 good attribute; Rangers have two, plus they can still take Vitality in the later stages and not miss on much. Almost all my items give either Vitality or Agility, with a few to Dexterity. The Strength items I really should get rid of; I've already been rejecting items that give strength in favor of weaker items with Agility, because it's the only way to actually survive battles.

In the later stages of the game, one of two things will invariably have to happen. Either same-level opponents always hit you and you always miss them, if you're not a ranger; or the opposite happens if you are a ranger. That is because, when rangers have 120 Agi and Dex, the Warriors would still have around 30-40 at best - an 80-point difference that renders all encounters either too easy for the Ranger, or too difficult for the Warrior. The "equalizer" here is level difference modifier - which means that Rangers will forever fight enemies of higher levels than the Warriors.

Offline m

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 04:27:45 PM »
Unfortunatly you are absolutly right! The rangers are totaly overpowered due to the fact that from all the hero's attributes the only ones in witch every point makes a difference in a fight are agility and dexterity and the rangers got double bonus on both of them (before lvl15). The double bonus of the warrior in strength does nothing - for each point I got maybe 0.1 more damage witch is a joke. The double bonus in vitality is a little bit better but let's face it if you can't hit the ennemy or evade for that matter it's just turning you in a little more resilliant punching bag. And francly I find a big part of the warrior's skill useless the way they are now. And the good ones have spirit requirements that only a mage could afford. ???
The skills that I find useless are charge and the stances (or in 2 words the basic warrior skills) so I restrained myself from spending any skill points in them in the hope that after lvl 15 I'll get a better choice. To my surprise both skills are present in the new choice of skills with the only difference that they have a bigger effect and in the case of charge bigger spirit requirement. ??? And except fot the weapon's masterys the other good skills require tier 3 (fury warrior). And I'm really hoping that dual wield is also for two handed weapons otherwise it's going under the notion useless skill, because of the fact that one handed weopons mastery is in the guardian choice of skills. Ok at this point I stop whining and I start getting constructive:
1. Balance the attributes (the importance of agi and dex). I don't know what formula is used but I'm sure that with a simpler multiplier witch diminishes the importance of this attributs it could be balanced.
2. Warriors skills:
Charge/raging charge - diminish the bonus and the spirit requirement and make it to be applied every round.
Stances - diminish the bonus and remove the penalty.
Dual wield - applies to two handed weaopons or you give the possibility for fury warriors to develop one handed weapons mastery
Whirlwind and especialy Battle Cry - diminish the spirit requirement so this skills could be used for more than 1-2 battles per day.

Sorry about the long post  :)

Offline Polymeron

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 05:01:02 PM »
Yeah, I completely forgot about the skills! Charge is pathetic, and the other warrior skills are only useful in a group...

I also forgot to mention the critical bonus on Dexterity, which makes it more useful than Strength even without the better to-hit chances!

Sheremetev

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 05:32:13 PM »
I agree, appart from the "overpowered" rangers issue. Actually, regarding the two other classes as "under"powered and improving their skills might make the game more versatile (actually the armor only a warrior can wear is twice better than ranger and mystic equipment judging by the items I see in IC). And ending up with no more dungeons to conquer and levels to progress after lvl50 is reached can be solved by adding a sixth tier, implying the full arena system and some more modules. So I suggest increasing warriors and mystics "power" without regarding the fact that the game advancement will speed up.

P.S: I know coming up with new Tiers isn't easy and it migt take a whole month (or more) planning and balancing (even creating a second world and another one or two skills per hero), but I this is a solution that should betaken into account.

Offline isolde

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 06:44:45 PM »
I agree, appart from the "overpowered" rangers issue. Actually, regarding the two other classes as "under"powered and improving their skills might make the game more versatile (actually the armor only a warrior can wear is twice better than ranger and mystic equipment judging by the items I see in IC). And ending up with no more dungeons to conquer and levels to progress after lvl50 is reached can be solved by adding a sixth tier, implying the full arena system and some more modules. So I suggest increasing warriors and mystics "power" without regarding the fact that the game advancement will speed up.

P.S: I know coming up with new Tiers isn't easy and it migt take a whole month (or more) planning and balancing (even creating a second world and another one or two skills per hero), but I this is a solution that should betaken into account.

Well, the problem of armor is that it does nothing for me ! I have 683 armor, I should be looking like a tank with so much steel on me and its only useful if I fight archers with damage range 3-20, because then I can manage to hit them once in a while to kill them. Anything stronger...and I am out. I just fought 3 level 17 marauders which took 1100 HP !!!! in a second and I could kill just one ! I know as a matter of fact that a ranger could easily defeat them because he has way higher chance to hit them AND to evade their hits. So I dont see how the classes are balanced, I understand we have different strengths/weaknesses but all of us should have some opponent we are particularly good against, and I currently dont have one ...

Offline Tiger

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 07:12:48 PM »
i wont complain. I think warriors are overpowered. i mean tier 3 isnt available and today they changed my favorite fighting position so i cant progress that fast. :) ;D Joke. And most of people obviusly like Legolas the most in LOTR.  ;)
In every game rangers or that kind of character are overpowered by highest damage, criticals, impossible to hit and so on.
I was considering to play ranger in beta because his dext + agility + so many weapons in tier 2 for ranger. i find only bows, throwing knives, javelins and some leather armors.
Everything written before stands, but i guess parties and quest for parties will change that. With so manny rangers, mystic and warriors will be very desired. And my guess that for example 2 warriors + ranger + 2 mages will kick 5 rangers party easily.
And my warrior can fight high lvl enemies with no problem. It kicked 3 lvl 17 archers while i was at lvl 10. From lvl 14 or 15 i kill 3 lvl 17-19 archers without problem and spending all aps on that. But things why warriors are so weak is because bad skills or better to say skills which only 1 can be active. if they were passive skills, it would be different.  Rangers depend on luck. few bad roles and they are dead. warrior can take a lot of damage + mostly always take minimum do to high armor. When you also develop block with 2 h sword which will eat half of enemy hits, you get good character, no matter if he only hits with 25% chances, but he do massive damage and can hold very long. And if you add mage to heal him... :)
 
And mystics are different story. it can be played excelent if you have a lot of time. i neglected my mystic, didnt give him equipment, lost aps on both character and so on, but he is lvl 17. But mystic takes a lot of time because double speed mana regeneration. so you need to be 2 times more often online. and now when he have new equipment, its much better.
And i must mention mana. skills costs to much. mystic spends all mana on healing in 1 battle, no matter that he takes little damage so he shouldnt get healed. warriors skills cost so much mana for 1 strike on the beggining. charge is useless. defensive and offensive stances are the same thing. You do more and take more damage, you do less and take less or you do average and take average and not spend 10 skill points on that.

But this is alfa. So we can test bugs and see things which couldnt be seen while making game. so they could be fixed and/or improved. Perfect balance cant be achieved, but we can get close.

PS. Each character can be played with great success with right strategy.

@isolde - those marauders are way to strong. i can kill 1 lvl 19 with 300 hp lost and they gave nice 1 handed weapon drop ussually. i am just curious if rangers can get them without problem and i hope some ranger will give answer about that. because marauders do nice damage and maximum evade chance are 75 % so even rangers will get hit 1/4. and they dont have 1k or 2k lives to hold on.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 07:19:12 PM by Tiger »

Offline KOPSi

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 07:50:26 PM »
Im ranger Jackp0T ,before i reached lvl 18 i heaved around 70 agility all in all , at lvl 18 i used bug and i jumped 55 points in agility, now my agility is over 170 with +20% weapon bonus...even with that high agility , i got hit 2-4 times per battle = i lose around 40 - 90 hp per battle and my total hp is 250 hp....before lvl 18 i heaved 200 hp and i was finishing battles with 40 - 70 hp remaining = i was losing 100-160 hp per battle... and that is 80% of my whole hp...
What is another issue is , some enemies are anti class fighters just like marauders are rangers nightmare... i died by now some 4,5 times attacking marauders in hooded ones dungeon... now i just do there 3 battles until on screen pop up that marauders are in next battle , here i retreat , while my warrior friend freely battles there and win...
Also warriors heave really nice armor, leather compared to plate armors is ratio 1/3 while chain to plate armor ratio is 2/3...

Well to me agility dont help much , i even with 170+ agi i get 4,5 times hit by lvl 17,18 enemies, same when i heaved 80 agility... so here i wish i stoped going agility at 90 , and concentrated more on dexterity or vitality...
about Streinght , now is not so big difference , but later when weapons have damage of 200-400 damage , difference is huge....

And in upper post of tiger , Just like he sayed , Rangers are solo players , while Warriors are more party based while mystics are totaly party based... lol , example 3 mystics in party = x3 heals every round....lol

in upper post tiger says at lvl 10 he was killing lvl 17 monsters while i got trouble til lvl 15 with single lvl 14 monster... soon as i passed lvl 11 i started going on group wolfs L 12 because on them i got *** bonus... til lvl after lvl 15 i am going on doungeon the hooded ones , and i fight just 3 battles until i see marauders on screen in next round where i retreat...
lol , even with my agility that is supposed to be for lvl 22, 23 character , i got hit by them every round...

Well, i am now in -25 in attribute points what is farthest where you could go in negative,
Next 5 lvls i cant spend attribute points so i am stuck with this what i heave :(

@ all:
PS. Each character can be played with great success with right strategy.

@ Tiger about marauders
i got my ass owned by them, even with my agility 170 their hit ratio is 13/15

« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 07:55:13 PM by KOPSi »

Offline radooo

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 08:02:59 PM »
in upper post tiger says at lvl 10 he was killing lvl 17 monsters while i got trouble til lvl 15 with single lvl 14 monster... soon as i passed lvl 11 i started going on group wolfs L 12 because on them i got *** bonus... til lvl after lvl 15 i am going on doungeon the hooded ones , and i fight just 3 battles until i see marauders on screen in next round where i retreat...

Some players know how tiger managed to kill those lvl 17 monsters while he was lvl 10. They didn't have critical chance and other things + he had the same weapon as he has now at lvl 21. So it isn't easy to compare  :)

Sheremetev

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 08:08:50 PM »
Well, I also have 140 Agi (and some nice Dex), but I invested in some TopTier items for extra Vitality (appart from the Agi bonusses)... now I am unstoppable and I can also make it till the third battle with marauders in the Blood Sons' Fort ... then it is pure luck whether they will hit me enough (or should I say too many) times. So Vitality is a Ranger's only weakness, but we can counter it with pricey items. However, Dex and Agility compensate strength and HP, but the opposite is not correct for now (althoug I have heard of mystics curses reducing wth 50 points enemie's strength... I wonder what will happen if I have to fight a lvl 27 mage and he curses me- what will I do with negative strength?!)

As radoo pointed out, having the TopTier items makes it a lot easier, but still lvl19 opponents are tough when having the lev.diff multyplier.

Offline Tiger

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 08:45:37 PM »
Well i killed those lvl 17 archers very luckily. after that i started to kill them again at lvl 15, not before, because lvl modifier was to big.
My friend just said to me that as ranger, he dont have problems with those marauders.  3 marauders kick me sometimes even on almost 2 k health. and they do all the time minimum damage to me because of armor. so ranger should get hitted harder and atleast 1/4 times. with 400 lives against marauders which have a lot of lives, even if they do only 15-20 damage every 4 strike- its to much to survive 3 of them.
i tried with my mystic which has 151 agility now, but they kill me even with 1/15 hits ratio. :) mystic lacks dexterity to hit. not even nice block will save him. obviusly i will have to start playing legolas. :)

Offline isolde

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 08:56:55 PM »
That is why I think there must be some kind of correction, I mean I am not as smart as Polymeron to crunch the numbers but I can still see that some of the skills of the warrior are not useful. I am OK with not being on top of the table, but I want my effort to be rewarded just as much and I want to play warrior which fits my personality not some other character just because it is maybe easier for them to progress. I think it will be better if we also see what quests are like and experience the advantages of team play - if tiger is right that mages will be there much stronger then solo, then I think more people will appreciate the strengths of their particular character type...

Sheremetev

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 09:12:37 PM »
Don't say I didn't warn you, but I simply have to say that- Join the ranged side!!!



P.S: sorry for getting off-topic and that I am messing with game's art (hope noone is offended, but I will remove the image if  someone is)

Offline KOPSi

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Re: what am I missing ?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 09:40:48 PM »
here should be class assassin, why not even thief : 30% chances for finding weapon and 30% more gold drop  :D

or assassin should be tier 5 upgrade  :D only knife and throwing knives for weapon  :D
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 09:42:23 PM by KOPSi »